Subject: jonesy speaks!

 guitar player july 1977

an introduction john paul jones' ongoing vitality as a bassist, keyboardist, composer, and arranger has been carefully documented on record. from his early session work ion the 60's with donovan leitch to his performance on the led zeppelin film soundtrack album, the song remains the same, he has demonstrated a consistently solid and animated bass style. as one half of the rhythm section of the british hard-rock supergroup led zeppelin, his role on 4-string is a supportive one, but he is also responsible for classic lines on tracks like "what is and what should never be," "the lemon song," (both on led zeppelin ii), and "black dog" (on the group's fourth untitled l.p.). 

john's enthusiasm for music manifests itself in a constantly developing bass style, and one needs only listen to his work on the first led zeppelin album and then on a later release such as presence to sense his growth as a player. this energy abounds in his words as well, and while he is generally regarded as the quietest member of the group, his thoughts and philosophies on music,the bass, and keyboard - once tapped - flow in a logical and intriguing dialogue. the 31-year-old native londoner is a musician first and foremost. jones describes his parents as musical; his father was a piano player and bandleader. john paul had one lesson on the bass and ascribes mainly to a philosophy he attributes to jazz bassist charles mingus: the best way to learn bass is to switch on the radio and play along with whatever comes on the air. at 16, jones left the strict english boarding school he hated. he remembers the only bright spot there to have been playing the organ at school prayers. with distaste he recalls that the only other musical training he had was given by a piano teacher who used the classic technique of whacking his students across the knuckles for their efforts. the interview 

gp: what was the impetus behind your becoming a bass player? 

jpj: i used to play piano when i was younger, and there was a rock and roll band forming at school when i was 14, but they didn't want a piano player - all they wanted was drums or bass. i thought, "i can't get the drums on the bus." bass looked easy - four strings, no chords - - so i took it up. and it was easy; it wasn't too bad at all. i took it up before guitar, which i suppose is sort of interesting. before i got a real 4-string, my father had a ukulele banjo, a little one, and i had that strung up like a bass, but it didn't quite have the bottom that was required. actually, my father didn't want to have to sign a guarantor to back me in the payments for a bass. he said, "don't bother with it; take up the tenor saxophone. in two years the bass guitar will never be heard of again." i said, "no, dad, i really want one; there's work for me." he said, "ah there's work?" and i got a bass right away.

gp: what was your first? 

jpj: oh, it was a pig. it had a neck like a tree trunk. it was a solidbody dallas bass guitar with a single cutaway. it sounded all right, though, and it was good for me because i developed very strong fingers. i had idea about setting up instruments then, so i just took it home from the shop. i had an amplifier with a 10" speaker - oh, it was awful. it made all kinds of farting noises. and then i had a converted television, you know, one of those big old standup televisions with the amp in the bottom and a speaker where the screen should be. i ended up giving myself double hernias. bass players had the hardest time because they always had to cope with the biggest piece of equipment. it never occurred to me when i was deciding between that and drums that i'd have to lug a bass amp. 

gp: what kind of music were you playing in that first band? 

jpj: shadows, little richard, jerry lee lewis stuff. i started doubling on piano. we didn't have a drummer at first, because we never could find one. that happened to another bass player, larry graham, sly stone's bass player. he started off in a band with no drummer, which is how he got that percussive style. you've got a lot to make up for once the lead guitar takes a solo because there's only you left. you've got to make a lot of noise. we got a drummer after a while whom i taught would you believe. i've never played drums in my life. 

gp: that must have definitely had an influence on your playing. 

jpj: i suppose it must have. i don't like bass players who go boppity boppity bop all over the neck; you should stay around the bottom and provide that end of the group. i work very closely with the drummer; it's very important. 

gp: how long did that first band last? 

jpj: not very long. i found a band with a drummer. this band also came along with really nice looking guitars. and i thought,"oh, they must be great." they had burns guitars, so, i got myself one too - the one with three pickups and a tru-voice amplifier. we all had purple band jackets and white shoes, and i thought, "this is it; this is the big time." but as soon as i got out of school i played at american air force bases, which was good training, plus they always had great records in the jukebox. that was my introduction to the black music scene, when very heavy gentleman would come up insisting on "night train" eight times an hour. 

gp: what was the first really professional band you were in? 

jpj: it was with jet harris and tony meehan (bassist and drummer formerly with the shadows); that was when i was 17, i suppose. and those were the days when they used to scream all the way through the show. it was just like now, really, where you have to make a mad dash for the limos at the end of the night - make a sort of terrible gauntlet. in the days before roadies you'd have to drag around your own gear, so we all invested in a roadie. we thought we owed it to ourselves, and this bloke was marvelous. he did everything: drove the wagon, lugged the gear, did the lights - - the whole thing. 

gp: what kinds of bass were you using with harris and meehan? 

jpj: oh, i got my first fender then. i lusted after this jazz bass in lewisham, and it cost me about $250, i think. it was the new one. they'd just changed the controls, and i used that bass up until the last (1975) tour, and then she had to go. she was getting unreliable and rattling a lot and i had to leave her home this time. 

gp: what followed your work with that band? 

jpj: i got into sessions. i thought,"i've had enough of the road," bought myself a dog, and didn't work for six months. then i did start up again. i played in other silly bands. i remember that jet harris and tony meehan band- john mclaughlin joined on rhythm guitar. it was the first time i'd met him, and it was hilarious. here he was going d minor to g to a minor. that was my first introduction to jazz when he came along, because we'd all get to the gig early and have a blow. oh, that was something, first meeting him. and then i joined a couple of other bands with him for a while, rhythm and blues bands. 

gp: do you remember the first session you ever did? 

jpj: not much of it. it was in decca number 2 (studio in london). i was late, and i suddenly realized how bad my reading was. there was another bass player there with a stand-up bass,and i was just there to provide the click. it was nearly my last session. 

gp: who were some of the people you were doing sessions with? 

jpj: all kinds of silly people - i used to do calls with (british vocalist) tom jones, cathy kirby, dusty springfield. 

gp: the rolling stones and donovan, too, didn't you?

 jpj: i only did one stones session, really. i just did the strings - they already had the track down. it was "she's a rainbow"(their satanic majesties request). and then the first donovan session was a shambles; it was awful. it was 'sunshine superman', and the arranger had got it all wrong, so i thought, being the opportunist that i was, "i can do better than that" and actually went up to the producer. he came around and said "is there anything we can do to sort of save the session?" and i piped up,"well look, how about if i play straight?" - because i had a part which went sort of ooowooooo (imitates a slide up the neck) every now and again, and the other bass player sort of did - wooooo (imitates downward slide) down below, and then there was some funny congas that were in and out of time. and i said, "how about if we just sort of play it straight; get the drummer to do this and that?" 

gp: how did the session go? 

jpj: the session came off, and i was immediately hired as the arranger by (producer) mickie most, whom i loved working with. he was a clever man. i used to do herman's hermits and all that. i mean they were never there; you could do a whole album in a day. and it was great fun and a lot of laughs. i did all of lulu's stuff and all of mickie's artists. i did one jeff beck single, and he's never spoken to me since. it was "hi ho silver lining."i did the arrangement for it and played bass. then we had "mellow yellow" for donovan, which we argued about for hours because they didn't like my arrangement at all, not at all.mickie stood by me; he said, "i like the arrangement, i think it's good." it wasn't donovan - he didn't mind either - but he had so many people around him saying, "hey, this isn't you." but he sold a couple million on it, didn't he? 

gp: on most of these sessions you were playing bass? 

jpj: yeah, the fender jazz. it was a '61 because it was new the year i bought it. amps were murder; amps were always murder. we were all right with jet harris and tony meehan because we used vox amps.,and i had the big t-60 which was, in fact, a forerunner of all these things we use nowadays with that big reflex cabinet and a little transistor top. it sounded great, but we had to have an arrangement with vox to replace them every couple of weeks because they would not last any longer. suddenly there would be an horrible noise, and the thing would just sit there looking at you, so you'd just wheel another one on. basically the problems haven't stopped; i can't find an amp that i love, and they've stopped making it. i can't win. 

gp: was the "hurdy gurdy man" session when you first met jimmy page?

jpj: no, i'd met jimmy on sessions before. it was always big jim and little jim - big jim sullivan - and little jim and myself and the drummer. apart from group sessions where he'd play solos and stuff like that, page always ended up on rhythm guitar because he couldn't read too well. he could read chord symbols and stuff, but he'd have to do anything they'd ask when he walked into a session. but i used to see a lot of him just sitting there with an acoustic guitar sort of raking out chords. i always thought the bass player's life was much more interesting in those days, because nobody really knew how to write for bass. so they used to say, "we'll give you the chord sheet and get on with it." even on the worst sessions, you could have a little runaround. but that was good; i would have hated to have sat there on acoustic guitar. 

gp: how long did you do sessions? 

jpj: three or four years, on and off. then i thought i was going to get into arranging, because it seemed that sessions and running about was much too silly. i started running about and arranging about 40 or 50 things a month. i ended up just putting a blank piece of score paper in front of me and just sitting there and starting at it. then i joined led zeppelin, i suppose, after my missus said tome, "will you stop moping around the house? why don't you join a band or something?" and i said, " there's no bands i want to join. what are you talking about?" and she said, " well, look, i think it was in 'disc'. jimmy page is forming a group" - he had left the yardbirds - "why don't you give him a ring?" so i rang him up and said, "jim,how are you doing? have you got a group yet?" he said, i haven't got anybody yet." and i said, "well, if you want a bass player give me a ring." and he said," all right, i'm going to see this singer terry reid told me about, and he might know a drummer as well.i'll call you when i've seen what they're like." he went up there, saw robert plant, and said, "this guy is really something." 

gp: what was your original name?

jpj: we started under the name the new yardbirds because nobody would book us under anything else. we rehearsed an act, an album, and a tour in about three weeks, and it took off. the first time, we all met in this little room just to see if we could even stand each other. it was wall-to-wall amplifiers and terrible, all old. robert (plant) had heard i was a session man. and he was wondering what was going to turn up - some old bloke with a pipe? so jimmy said, " well, we're all here. what are we going to play?" and i said, "i don't know. what do you know?" and jimmy said, "do you know a number called 'the train kept a-rollin'?" i told him, "no." and he said, "it's easy, just g to a." he counted it out, and the room just exploded, and we said, "right, we're on, this is it, this is going to work!" and we just sort of built it up from there. "dazed and confused" (led zeppelin) came in because jimmy knew that, but i could never get the sequence right for years; it kept changing all the time with different parts, and i was never used to that. i'm used to having the music there. i could never remember - in fact, i'm still the worst in the band for remembering anything. and the group jokes about it: "jonesy always gets the titles wrong and the sequences wrong." even now i have a piece of paper i stuck on the top of the mellotron which says: "kashmir - remember the coda!" 

gp: what were some of your earlier amplifiers? 

jpj: i've used everything from a lousy made-up job to a great, huge, top valve (tube) amp. We started off in a deal with rickenbacker where we had these awful, awful rickenbacker amps; they were so bad. our first tour was a shambles. for about a year i never even heard the bass. they said, "we've designed the speaker cabinet for you," and i said, "let me see it. whats it got in it?" it had one 30 inch speaker! i said, "all right, stand it up there along side whatever else i've got and ill use it." i plugged it in, and in a matter of five seconds i blew it up. i thought the bloke was having me on; I said, " there's no such thing as a 30 inch speaker!" and i had to take the back off because i couldn't believe it. then we met the guy from univox, and he came up with a bass stack which unfortunately didn't last the night. but while it was going, it was the most unbelievable sound i've ever heard. it was at the nassau coliseum in new york, i remember, and the bass filled the hall. it was so big, it couldn't have lasted. i don't think ill come across anything that sounded like that. but as i said, three numbers and wheel the acoustics out again. i used two or three 360 standard acoustics for quite a long time; they served me well. 

gp: you used the jazz bass until just recently then? 

jpj: yea. oh, i got a hold of a very nice old gibson violin bass (pictured in the little cut-out wheel on the cover of led zeppelin 3). that was nice too; it's not stage worthy, but it gives a beautiful warm sound. i don't like gibson basses generally because they feel all rubbery; i like something you can get your teeth into. the violin bass was the only gibson that was as heavy as a fender to play, but still had that fine gibson sound. i used it on led zeppelin 3, and i've used it every now and again, usually when im tracking a bass after i've done keyboards for the main track. the one i have went through little richard's band and then through james brown's band, and it arrived in england. in fact, i saw it on an old movie clip of little richard. it was probably about a '48 or '50 or something like that; it was the original one. actually, i've got an old '52 telecaster bass. i used that on stage for a while, for "black dog" and things like that. 

gp: what is your bass set up now? 

jpj: rick turner of alembic made me an alembic bass, and its beautiful. it has standard alembic circuitry and is extremely versatile: two pickups, with a hum-canceling system. it runs from a power supply; its power assisted somehow with a preamp, which fits into the guitar. i've got l.e.d.'s (for fret markers) all up the side - i love those - and its got a full two-octave neck. in a shop, i came across an 8-string before this one, and when i found out it was alembic, i rang up the bloke and said, "look, what else do you do?" i think i'll get him to make me a fretless next. last i heard, he was working on some idea with a stainless-steel fingerboard. 

gp: what does two full octaves mean to you as a player? 

jpj: it gives you so much more room, and there isn't any position on the instrument that sounds off - you can use it all. im finding out all sorts of things; you can never get up there with a fender. 

gp: is it easier or harder to play than the fender? 

jpj: its much more fun, and there's a lot more to do on it. when your intonation is true on all four strings all the way up, you suddenly realize you can play chords, and the notes are clear. its a whole different way of playing. it definitely has changed my technique. i can now get above the fifth fret, which always has been somewhat of a mystery. i still use the fender fretless because i need a fretless on stage. i don't particularly like the instrument, but it's better than any of the other ones they have. 

gp: was the fretless hard to get used to? 

jpj: no. you think its going to be, but its not. i also use a stand-up electric bass on stage; i think its an arco. there was a spate of them came out in the middle '60s - italian-made basses - and i bought it for fun. 

gp: do you play it on record? 

jpj: no its no where near accurate enough, and its too hard to play; you can't do anything with it. since i've got a bit more power back in my fingers now, i can begin to go a little bit further up the neck. you couldn't use it for more than one number. 

gp: what kind of amps do you use? 

jpj: the one they don't make anymore, g.m.t.600b (made by gallien-krueger), which has since been replaced by the 400b which bears (sic) no resemblence at all. but im going to ring them up, too, and ask if they'll please make me another of the old type, because it is excellent. it has a curious kind of shelving on the filter system. i think they call it "contour." its very ballsy for a transistorized amp. maybe the alembic is a little to hot for it, but i might be able to work something out. this is just the head; i use cerwin-vega cabinets, which are excellent. i use just the one top and two cabinets, each of which i think has one 15 inch and one 10 inch speaker. its loud, right? there's a lot of power, proper power. 

gp: you like solid-state amps for bass then? 

jpj: yes, i find them a bit tighter than valve amps, really. i dont think there so good for guitar. the sound tends to spread a lot and you don't get the definition. i prefer more of a recorded sound on stage. 

gp: your stage and studio equipment are the same? 

jpj: yes, although you really can't say that because in the studio i like to mix direct and amp. with the fender, the direct was never that good, but the alembic can go direct, and it sounds really good. 

gp: what settings do you use to produce the best response? 

jpj: i usually set the amp in the middle. we have to run it a little lower than i like because, as i say, the alembic is a bit hot. but that guitar is going to be more fun to record with, as far as setttings are concerned, because there's a lot of variations in tone and all sorts of things you can do. i haven't used the alembic for recording yet. i used the 8-string on 'presence', but the 4-string was made after that. im still using the fender on the live album (the song remains the same). 

gp: do you ever use a pick when you play? 

jpj: yes, when the situation demands it; on the 8-string its awful messy with your fingers. on 'the song remains the same', i use a pick to get that snap out of the instrument. its fun; you play different. if i was just playing straight bass, i'd use fingers. when i first started, i always used my fingers. 

gp: what kind of a pick and strings do you use? 

jpj: herco gray and rotosound wire-wounds. i got into them with the alembic because i never used to like the round-wound strings. on the fender i used rotosound, but they were flat-wound, and i've never liked the string noise. but the alembic just demands you use something a bit brighter; otherwise you're doing the instrument a disservice. i first put round-wound strings on the telecaster bass because it demanded that. i tried flat-wounds on the alembic, and sort of lost half the instrument. plus the wire-wounds seem to fill out better if jimmy's soloing; they make more of a guitar sound on the alembic than a bass sound. but the alembic's got enough low end that it fills out the spectrum. i think it's going to be alright. 

gp: you don't use any pedals or boosters? 

jpj: no, i never have; what can you do with the bass anyway? you can go wah-wah-wah, or you can phase it and make it even muddier than it usually does. i think im more into the musical side of things; i don't use synthesizers because they always sound like synthesizers. 

gp: how has playing with jimmy page for the last nine years styled your playing? 

jpj: thats hard. i play a lot looser than i used to. for instance, somebody like (who bassist) john entwistle is more of a lead instrument man than i am. i tend to work closer with bonzo (drummer john bonham), i think. but then again, i don't play that much bass on stage anymore, what with the pianos and the mellotron. i'll always say i'm a bass player, though. 

gp: how do you develop a bass part?

jpj: you put in what is correct and what's necessary. i always did like a good tune on the bass. for an example, listen to "what is and what should never be" then (on led zeppelin 2). the role of a bassist is hard to define. you can't play chords, so you have a harmonic role: picking and timing notes. you'll suggest a melodic or a harmonic pattern, but i seem to be changing anyway toward more of a lead style. the alembic is doing it; i play differently on it. but i try to never forget my role as a bass player: to play the bass and not mess around too much at the top all the time. you've got to have somebody down there, and that's the most important thing. the numbers must sound right. they must work right; they must be balanced.

gp: do you practice? 

jpj: no, in a word. i fool around on piano, but bass i never practice. although, again with the alembic, i'm beginning to feel, "wouldn't it be nice to have it in the room?" it really makes you want to play more, which is fantastic. 

gp: who do you listen to? 

jpj: i don't. i used to listen to a lot of jazz bass players once, but jazz has changed so much now its hardly recognizable. i listened to a lot of tenor sax players: sonny rollins, john coltrane, and all those people. bass players? scott la faro, who died; he used to be with (late jazz pianist) bill evans. excellent player. i liked the late jazz bassist paul chambers, and ray brown, and charlie mingus, of course. i'm not too keen on the lead bass style of some players. paul mccartney i've always respected; he puts the notes in the right place at the right time. he knows what he's about. 

gp: there's nothing you'd like to do outside of zeppelin in an instrumental context? 

jpj: i always get the feeling i'd like to write a symphony. i like all music. i like classical music a lot - ravel, bach, of course. mozart i could never stand, though to play it on the piano is great fun. if bach had ever come across the bass guitar, he would have loved it. rock and roll is the only music left where you can improvise. i don't know what's happened to jazz; it has really disappointed me. i guess they started playing rock and roll. 

gp: so you're able to continually experiment in zeppelin and expand your playing? 

jpj: yes, absolutely. i wouldn't be without zeppelin for the world. 

- steve rosen -